The Shroud of Turin...

**mikezila** · 04-10-2009, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Holly Martins

I think it's bogus but that doesn't diminish it as an historical item of interest worth preserving and testament to the artistic skills of the person/persons who created it.

A lot of supposed holy relics have been trotted around the globe for years. There have been umpteen holy crosses and holy spears and holy shrouds. It's been an historically lucrative business. It's probably going to continue to be.

the blood on the shroud is rare among medieval Europeans, but common in the middle-east. if it is a work of art, it's a damn lucky one. one that no one has been able to reproduce with medieval technology.

**Mark** · 04-10-2009, 11:46 AM

Not trying to be funny here, but if it were the authentic cloth which draped the Son of God I would expect something magical about it.

It is a fascinating artifact though.

**Holly Martins** · 04-10-2009, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by mikezila

the blood on the shroud is rare among medieval Europeans, but common in the middle-east. if it is a work of art, it's a damn lucky one. one that no one has been able to reproduce with medieval technology.

Well I don't know if it's blood or not but let's say for the sake of argument it is and that the blood is middle eastern and not European. There are any number of ways this could have happened in the 15th c (or thereabouts cause that's the era, correct me if I am wrong, that the shroud has been carbon dated to). Europeans had been involved in the crusades in Palestine and it could have been manufactured there or the shroud could have been the work of Byzantine refugees in Italy. Lots of Byzantines arrived in Italy from 1200 on seeking refuge from the many wars that were engulfing and shrinking their land between 1200 and 1453 when the Empire (in name only) finally fell to the Turks. One of the things Byzantium has been historically reknowned for is the creation of holy relics and icons (always a brisk trade in these in the Christian Roman empire of the east) and many Byzantines would have had ancestry and blood from asia minor and the old Roman and Greek cities of of the Lebanon/Syria/Palestine area-Antioch for example. That's just some of the ways there could middle eastern blood involved if there is. I don't share your belief in the shroud Mike but I do share or agree with you that it's important just not for the same reasons or level of importance assigned.

**mikezila** · 04-10-2009, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Midnight_Rider

Not trying to be funny here, but if it were the authentic cloth which draped the Son of God I would expect something magical about it.

It is a fascinating artifact though.

the hands and mouth have x-ray like images of the hand bones and teeth, as if the shroud passed thru the body. the image on the face side is also sightly stronger than on the reverse.

that's why i don't think that it's the image of the last Grand Master of the Knights Templars as some have speculated. if the image is from natural occurrences, you would think the opposite would occur...unless, the body was laid face down for some reason.

anywho, it doesn't explain what happened to the shroud that was recorded to be in the possession of the Templars well before their fall from favor.

whether it's a icon or relic doesn't matter much to me, it's not the foundation of my faith. i'd just like to know.:shifty:

**mikezila** · 04-10-2009, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Holly Martins

Well I don't know if it's blood or not but let's say for the sake of argument it is and that the blood is middle eastern and not European. There are any number of ways this could have happened in the 15th c (or thereabouts cause that's the era, correct me if I am wrong, that the shroud has been carbon dated to). Europeans had been involved in the crusades in Palestine and it could have been manufactured there or the shroud could have been the work of Byzantine refugees in Italy. Lots of Byzantines arrived in Italy from 1200 on seeking refuge from the many wars that were engulfing and shrinking their land between 1200 and 1453 when the Empire (in name only) finally fell to the Turks. One of the things Byzantium has been historically reknowned for is the creation of holy relics and icons (always a brisk trade in these in the Christian Roman empire of the east) and many Byzantines would have had ancestry and blood from asia minor and the old Roman and Greek cities of of the Lebanon/Syria/Palestine area-Antioch for example. That's just some of the ways there could middle eastern blood involved if there is. I don't share your belief in the shroud Mike but I do share or agree with you that it's important just not for the same reasons or level of importance assigned.

if there's one thing that those that have seriously looked into this question agree on, is that this wasn't a work of art in the typical sense. it's not a painting or drawing. if it was manufactered, how it was done exactly is a mystery. if it was done for profit, i'm sure "they" would have made more than just one.

yes, it is human blood, type AB. same as on the more obscure head covering. if they're both "fakes", or in error, that's one heck of a coincidence....even more if they belong to the same person.

the carbon dating is as suspect as trying to find the year of a car by the paint that a fender left behind. it can be done if the car was never repaired, but this fender has been thru a lot of abuse.