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Originally Posted by curiosity
Well it couldn't be the Old Testament if it contains the words of Jesus.
I could be wrong but I don’t believe the Acts of Thomas were ever included in the Bible (if that is what the Doc is alluding too).
Brock
Do you mean the Old Testament?
It seems the New Testament gives all manner of accounts why Reincarnation is not a possibility in the eyes of the church.
Here is the second link I gave after the Google one...
Reincarnation in the Old Testament
“JUDAISM AND REBIRTH
The Hebrew word for reincarnation, gilgul, comes from a verb meaning "turning in a circle."
The following Old Testament scriptures prohibit talking to the dead. While this is not a direct endorsement of rebirth, it nonetheless indicates that the soul can be functioning quite well without a body otherwise there could be no conversing with them. It also indicates that after they die, these souls are somewhere. Can they be in heaven or hell without first having an orthodox final judgment day? Or, perhaps they are now in heaven or hell because there is no "final" judgment day when all souls are judged and assigned permanently to either region. Or, if there is a final judgment day, from what place are they now, prior to the judgment, able to converse with the living? Reincarnation would have them in various after-worlds that can be generally grouped as heaven or hell each with multiple levels of enjoyment or severity.
The following two scriptures assert the life of the soul after the body falls away:
Let no one be found among you who . . . is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Deuteronomy. 18:10-11, NIV
Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God. Leviticus 19:31, NIV
The next scripture clearly asserts the existence of at least this soul prior to being placed in the womb.
The word of the Lord came to me, saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:4-5, NIV
Solomon tells us in the following passage that if we do evil deeds in this life, we will have to reap the effects in our next incarnation. It is clear in this passage that Solomon believed in reincarnation. Having forsaken the law, these ungodly men will be reborn in another life to inherit their curse.
Woe be unto you, ungodly men, which have forsaken the law of the most high God: for if you increase it shall be to your destruction. And if you be born, you shall be born to a curse… Ecclesiasticus 41:8-9, KJV, 1611 Edition, Apocrypha
Flavius Josephus, born 37 C.E., died after 93 C.E., is the most well know Jewish historian. He was a Pharisee, born Joseph ben Matthias who served as a commander in Galilee in the Jewish revolt against Rome in 66 C.E. His Jewish Antiquities, written about 93 C.E., describes the history of the Jews from the Creation onward with a particularly full account of the Maccabees and the dynasty of Herod. Reincarnation runs through his works like salt through a salt shaker. He talks of rebirth in such a matter-of-fact way that one must assume it was an accepted way of thinking which was so common at the time that it did not merit any further explanation. Many historians believe the previously mentioned discussions between Jesus and the disciples involving rebirth are the same. There was no expounding of the doctrine because it was so commonly understood.
The bodies of all men are, indeed, mortal, and are created out of corruptible matter; but the soul is ever immortal, and is a portion of the divinity that inhabits our bodies. . . . Do not you know, that those who depart out of this life according to the laws of nature . . . enjoy eternal fame; that their houses and posterity are sure; that their souls are pure and obedient, and obtain a most holy place in heaven, from whence, in the revolution of ages, they are again sent . . . into bodies; while the souls of those whose hands have acted madly against themselves are received by the darkest place in Hades? The Works of Flavius Josephus, translated by William Wiston
Going back to the time of Christ we do not have to look far to discover a large cheering section for the doctrine of rebirth among the orthodox Jewish leaders of that period. There are three learned Jewish philosophers appearing just before or at the time of Christ who taught the doctrine of reincarnation. They were Philo Judaeus, aka Philo of Alexandria, C. 20 B.C.E.- C. 50 C.E., who was the greatest Jewish philosopher and theologian of the Greco-Roman period whose writings have survived; the Jewish sage Hillel, the great Chaldean teacher who was the leading Pharisee in Jerusalem during the late 1st century B.C.E. and early years of the present era; and the great Jewish sage Jehoshuah ben Pandira. Today these three men are household names in Judaism and garner enormous respect from all orthodox Jews regardless of sect. They are prominent fixtures in Jewish religious history and they all taught the doctrine of reincarnation.”
Reincarnation in the Old Testament
http://www.reincarnation.ws/reincarn...testament.html
Last edited by curiosity; 11-29-2007 at 01:32 PM.
ok ......
first off....
The book i'm refering to is suppossed to be one of the books that was supposed to be in the bible , like mark and John and stuff...
the book of thomas .....
The new testament is suppossed to be a chosen thiong that was decided by some council....yes no.....recently the Book of Judas has been bandied about....and in it Judas was Jesus is his favourite due to the fact he had to betray the one he loved the most....a deed that is totally linked to the purpose of Jesus....dying for the sins of man......It was all too much for judas and he hanged himself......
Lily...i am not a Jewish scholar but this is how i learnt about this...
About 10 years ago a famous Jewish rabbi well known in NYC spoke out casually and got himself in so much hot water he was thrust into oblivion...this is what happened and caught my eye.....
Somewhere he was speaking and he said that the jews that died in the holocust were destined to, due to some deeds in their past lives that needed to be purified and the only way for them was this huge event!!!!!
The whole past lives thing set off alarm bells in me and i pursued it by talking to Rabbinical Jews who indeed verified the teaching......
As per the the holocust and the jews deserving this fate.....
I will leave this up to people's interpratation of karma..
but i have always stipulated amongst out spoken Buddhists that it is ver easy to tell some uber rich handsome person that this is all due to his/her Karma from the past that they are reaping......but to go to some crippled empoverished ugly wretch and do the same is just wrong...it only causes angst at the very least.....
But Lily if you dig you will find it.....
the bible....the new testement...but i'm rethinking this
Those passages don't say that souls "live on" and can be consulted. Rather, people are being warned against seeking out those who claim they can talk with the dead.The following two scriptures assert the life of the soul after the body falls away:
Let no one be found among you who . . . is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Deuteronomy. 18:10-11, NIV
Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord your God. Leviticus 19:31, NIV
Again, no, that's not what the scripture is saying. It's simply saying that God chose Jeremiah for great things. God knows each and every one of us, and while we have free will, I believe He knows what our choices will be too.The next scripture clearly asserts the existence of at least this soul prior to being placed in the womb.
The word of the Lord came to me, saying, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." Jeremiah 1:4-5, NIV
Apocrypha is the key word here.Solomon tells us in the following passage that if we do evil deeds in this life, we will have to reap the effects in our next incarnation. It is clear in this passage that Solomon believed in reincarnation. Having forsaken the law, these ungodly men will be reborn in another life to inherit their curse.
Woe be unto you, ungodly men, which have forsaken the law of the most high God: for if you increase it shall be to your destruction. And if you be born, you shall be born to a curse… Ecclesiasticus 41:8-9, KJV, 1611 Edition, Apocrypha
Owl (11-29-2007)
The point here is that the roots to Christian thought are from the Jewish tradition....it is possible that the Popes messed about with the actual Teachings of the one known as Jesus...
To seperate reincarnation from His Teachings had to have been done at a later stage....If the Son of God wanted the world to realize a basic Jewish teaching ,which has the impact of reincarnation and what it implies as per your death and your immediate entry into Heaven or Hell, He would have talked about this openly.....By not talking about it implies that He accepted as everyone else did at the time....
Or He did in fact talk and explain it further as is stated in the disciples' Book of Thomas and was changed due to Roman belief systems at the time of the emperor Constantine......His change to christianity just did not have reincarnation in the picture......
But one cannot deny the Jewish teaching of being reborn human, which The Rabbi Jesus did not refute
I don't remember where in the Bible it is, but I remember learning that when Jesus returns to earth, the dead will rise first and then the living will follow.
To me, that means when you die, you wait till you go to Heaven.
I've never heard this, but next time I see him on-line, I'll ask my Jewish friend about it.But one cannot deny the Jewish teaching of being reborn human,
Doc are you talking about the Gnostic teachings?
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/nhl_thomas.htm
If we have no peace, it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other.
Mother Teresa
yes and your link sheds new light on what i was told....Ta Tam
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